Iroquoise Correspondence (c)

Letter on the Size of the Iroquoise:

From: "Dennis & Kathi McCarthy"
To: Robert Robillard
Subject: Re: Anson and others
Date: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 2:18 AM

Hi Robert,

1. Pouchot's Memoirs were 3 volumes written in French. Hough translated it into 2 volumes and added annotations, some of which are hard to verify. In 1994 Old Fort Niagara Association translated Pouchot's Memoirs again. This reference does not appear. There are noticeable differences between the two translations.

This is an interesting footnote, but I'd like to see more evidence as to where it came from. I wonder if the original is in German or French, In 1760 Germany was many Separate States.

2. The new hulk as listed in the Amherst papers was '56 feet on the keel with a beam of 22 feet and a depth of hold of 9 feet 2 inches'
As soon as I find the reference I'll let you know. It is filed in a crate with many copies of documents.. It is in W.O.34.

3. I've attached a copy of the M.S.61 map showing the Iroquoise & the New Hulk next to each other.

4. I am somewhat familiar with the size of the Iroquoise. Please read my attached report. This report is on-file with the State of New York in conjunction with an UW survey permit. Please do not distribute it without our permission. The dimensions of the New Hulk do not preclude her from being similar to the Iroquoise.

5. There is information in the "Memoirs On the War in North America Between France and England" by Pierre Pouchot and republished by Old Fort Niagara Association in 1994. on page 300. They even had the tendency to speculate, because of the many contradictory reports, which can be dangerous.

"The hulk laying along side the Iroquoise was a third corvette, ordered built as early as September 24th, 1758. Hamiton , Aventure  , page 279. Construction had begun at Point Baril by April 12th 1759, and Montcalm expected her to be completed by the end of May. Casgrain, Collection, VII, page 507-8. For some reason probably a shortage of men or equipment, she was never put into service. Intelligence reports during the summer and fall of 1759 reported the third vessel "almost Finish'd"  and "ready all to her rigging." Examination of Elias Pegan, June 27th, 1759 , Gage Papers/2 ; Journal, September 12th, 1759, SWJP, XIII, page 140. The hulk was probably taken to Orakointon when the Pointe au Baril shipyard was abandoned and burned in September 1759. Ibid, page 142. By the spring of 1760 the third warship, reported to be "very large", still had not been completed. Lottridge to Johnson, May 10th 1760, Ibid, X, page 146"

6. As far as good sailing vessel they all foundered.  The Proceedings of a court of enquiry on the H.M.S. Anson stated that "She sailed wildly at all times". This may have been more the fault that they were crewed by British Infantry Solders of the 55th Regiment. I will also locat the information on this if you are interested.

Enough for now.


Letter on the Naming of the Iroquoise:

 From: Robert Robillard To: Dennis & Kathi McCarthy
      Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 10:19 AM
      Subject: Re: Anson and others
      Hi Dennis

      I was searching for the fate of  each one after 1760 and in in the books I read it was not clear.

      Then I search on the internet and I found the site of Mr Ronald Deschênes There I found informations about  the Iroquoise Outaouaise and New Hulk.  I ask him by  e-mail the references about this and he send to me a  partial copy of a letter you posted to Cdt Alain Demerlac February 3, 1997 with your address and e-mail on it.

      Some documents let me believe that the New Hulk was built as a transport , was smaller than the other two;  what do you think about this?

      Perhaps you have now the information  about the naming of French vessels L’Iroquoise but here an opinion from  province of Québec :

      Goélette is féminine and basically goes with the subject  and La Outaouaise become L’outaouaise and La Iroquoise become L’Iroquoise.

      Basically because there are exception ex: Le Dragon Volant a French deep sea schooner; Dragon is masculin.

      Bonjour à la prochaine


Letter on "His Majesties Schooner Anson Late the Iroquoise":

From: Dennis & Kathi McCarthy
    To: Robert Robillard
    Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 2:07 AM
    Subject: Re: Anson and others

    Hi Robert,

    Yes I did correspond with Capt. Alain DELMERLIAC. He had used English Navy List in his book "LA MARINE DE LOUIS XV" which
    were in error in the identification of the vessels we are talking about. He told me he had hoped to correct this if he did a next-issue of his book.

    The information I have on the New Hulk is from British documents and does not have much on it before it was raised and fitted for service. Given   that the armed vessels were used for both battle and transport duties I believe the New Hulk would have been the same. It is our belief that the New Hulk was build around the same plan as the l’Iroquoise and Williamson. There is a contemporary drawing of the New Hulk shown along side the l’Iroquoise. This is a drawing of the Plan of fort Levy 10/4/1760. It is in the Canadian Archives and I think it is identified as M.S.61. It shows both vessel to be of similar size. Decking and masts on the l’Iroquoise but none on the New Hulk.

    The vessels that were build at Fort Niagara in 1758 were captured intact by the English and used in 1759 until the wrecked 30 miles east of Oswego. The reference to this is in Ontario Historical Society article Fight at the West Gate 1760 by Malcolm MacLeod identifying WO 34 , 38 159. I have tried to translate a letter from 1759 (WO34 65 2)but the origial was in very poor shape and I have not finished reading all the material. I have attached draft copy of it.

    The first record I have linking the l’Iroquoise with the H.M.S. Anson is WO 34 65 page 154 in Jeffery Amherst ‘s orders to "To Lieut. Deering Commander of His Majesties Schooner Anson Late the Iroquoise" This I think is the only English contemporary record where I have found the French Name of the Vessel given. I have no primary French records. No explanation of the name was given. No "l’"

    Some books on the Iroquoise ( Snider in particular) claim the l’Iroquoise and l’Outaouise were named after Indian Maidens or Indian Woman. I see no proof of this and I would tend to agree with your conclusions.